07
Nov
07

My Journey Thus Far

I have been thinking a lot lately about de-converting, atheism, liberal and conservative Protestantism, to church or not to church, heaven and hell, what to do with Jesus, etc. and I will attempt to summarize the journey as best as I can, from early on till now.

I was a full time minister, both as pastor and associate pastor, for 7 years. Before that, I had done some youth ministry work with my home church and worked at a Christian summer camp for two summers. I really enjoyed being with people who were like me. It was easy. No major differences to speak of. As I got older and more responsibility was given to me, I thought, “This is it. I’ve arrived. I am where God wants me.” Life was…predictable.

It has been said that most people have a crisis of belief at some point in their lives. For most, it happens at early adulthood, for or some, early adolescence and for others later in life. I fall in the latter, later in life. I think that I can now pinpoint the time when it happened.

I had resigned pastoring my first church and had gotten a job as a cable TV installer. My family and I started attending another church and instantly fell in love with it. When you have pastored a church for awhile and then have little to no responsibilities at a new church, it is euphoric. What’s not to love? We weren’t members of the church very long when I was approached to teach an adult class for Sunday School. I was excited to take on a leadership role at this new church, so I accepted. Not long after that, I was offered the associate pastor/ youth minister’s position, a paying position, so I gladly accepted. I quit work with the cable company and planned to complete college. There is a “liberal arts” college near my home, so I enrolled. This is where the defining moment occurred. I was given special permission to take two religion classes, Religion 101 Old Testament and Religion 102 New Testament, and I even added in Religion and the Arts, World Civ., and a required orientation class. I get to my religion classes with a pretty well established Christian worldview, based solely on my experiences up to that point in my life. I had never gone to school to be a pastor but I had been one, and was one at this time. I found out in the first couple of classes that I attended, I was…misinformed about a great many things. To this point, I had always believed the bible was without error, God’s own words. I believed that the stories in the bible were not just stories but actual accounts of history. I believed that Christianity was THE road to God, the afterlife and its rewards. I believed anybody that had not had a “salvation” experience was lost and destined for hell. I believed that the bible writers were all taking dictation from their “God” phone and simply writing what he said down. I believed that the bible was some how one book that was stretched out over several thousand years. What I learned in that one semester of college literally blew my mind!

It would take up too much of your time to go into all the changes. Let’s just say that most of what I believed was…erroneous. At first, naturally, I thought, “These professors are heretics! How can this be a conservative Baptist college and teach this kind of stuff?” I put this new information on a shelf in the back of my mind and decided to take seminary classes by extension. There was a program offered by New Orleans Theological Seminary close enough by my house that I enrolled there instead the next semester. The way the extension classes worked, I stayed there most of Monday afternoon into the evening, but was able to get three classes in one day, nine hours. I did this for about two and half years. The classes were more of what I expected when I first started my secondary school work. Everyone there shared the same Christian worldview I was accustomed to it and it was more…comfortable. I wasn’t really challenged at all at these classes, but I was getting some hours under my belt and I felt pretty good about that. The extension classes work in a cycle. You can get in on any part of the cycle and get enough credits for an associate degree. From that point on, I would have to go to the NOBTS campus in New Orleans to complete my bachelor’s degree. I couldn’t uproot my family, so I tried finding ways to complete my degree online, without any luck. Since there was no other way for me to complete my degree, I just settled in my mind that that was as far as I was going to go.

During my time at seminary, I was working full time with the church. I liked going to school and getting some fodder for teaching the youth or adults in Sunday School. I felt really empowered. Life was pretty good and that is proverbially when the bottom falls out.

I started to have some difficulties with the senior pastor. We no longer saw eye to eye on some things and I felt constantly frustrated with the situation. I began to see that his ideas on how to minister where very different from my own and there was nothing I could do or say that would change that. But I stuck it out for a few more years. But like any untreated wound, things festered. Long story short, I resigned when things were at there quietest so that there would not be any harm to the church, and slipped quietly away.

At the time, I thought I was leaving that church for another church. My family and I took a week or so off and started looking for other churches. I quickly discovered that I didn’t like any of them. I was extremely cynical and disillusioned. I still had some ideas about how church and ministry should be done and ended up running into a friend of mine from several years before. He was starting a home based church ministry and I was immediately interested. We talked a lot over a few months and tried to come up with a model for church that worked. We met together with a few others, in homes, and tried to make things happen. Unfortunately, we began to see a very big problem. In order to have a home church, you have to have potential members, people in your “circle of influence” to invite to come and join in. My friend, Lyndon, and I have the same occupation, marketing/advertising in the health care field. We travel around the state mostly and have no co-workers. It’s pretty much a solo mission. So that limited our “circle”. Another thing that limited our “circle” was all our friendships were with church people. We discovered we didn’t know non-Christians or non-church people. With a depleted “circle” of people we could minister to, we sort of disbanded. We had an idea of going to churches and trying to work with them to change what they were doing to match what we thought would work, but that didn’t work either. We finally decided it was time to give up on the church/ministry we were trying to do. What I discovered next was that I didn’t leave one church for another, I actually had left ministry period.

For the next few months, I tried going to church with my family. My wife was open to try some new things, so we did, but nothing appealed to me, I was still way too cynical. I started to believe that I was now agnostic or maybe even an atheist. It’s really amazing how fast the “fall” was for me. One day, minister, next day cynic, next day agnostic, where was the bottom going to come?

Influenced by my friend and authors such as Brennan Manning, Henri Nouwen, some Philip Yancey and Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet, Mike Yaconelli, Gordon Atkinson (Real Live Preacher, especially his early stuff), and more recently Marcus Borg, Karen Armstrong, and Donald Miller, I started to come to terms with the fact that I had completely left religion, the church, and all it had to offer. I couldn’t, however, leave God. Something keeps me from leaving the journey to find God. I can’t explain it but it is undeniable. Cynical as I am, I can’t let go of God. I have let go of the romanticized version of God and I think that is where I am right now.

I read a lot. Books and blogs, I listen to audiobooks when I am driving. I seem to have an insatiable need for knowledge. The difference between my life before “The Great Awakening” (what I call my moment of crisis of belief) and now is that I don’t limit myself to hearing only one voice, ie conservative Christian. I am more open to all kinds of things and so the vast sea of knowledge is even more vast. I have learned a great deal from this openess to all things. I have found that I am not alone in my thoughts. I owe a lot of the beginning of this journey to my good friend Lyndon. Without me having someone to talk to about what I was going through and them completely understand, I would have gone nuts. There is no doubt in my mind. Nuts.

Now you know where the next few statements are coming from, the context from which they flow.

I am not a Christian as most would define Christianity. I don’t want to be associated with, in my humble opinion, this dilluted version of religion. I define religion as the method by which we seek “God”. I agree with Margaret Cho’s statement, “I wish Jesus would come back and say, ‘THAT’S NOT WHAT I MEANT!!” I really believe that Jesus would really be appalled at what has happened and is happening in his name.

I am not an atheist. I define atheist here to mean the “belief” that there is no God. I have not come to that conclusion in my journey thus far. Even though I may not view God as I once did, I haven’t rejected the idea of something bigger than myself in the center of it all.

I am somewhere in the middle of these two. Maybe agnostic thiest is the appropriate term if it is defined as one who views that the true value of certain claims, in particular the existance of “God” is unknown or inherently unknowable but chooses to believe in God in spite of this. Is this dillusionable? Probably in most’s opinions. Can I help it? Not right now and maybe ever. I tried explaining this to Lyndon just the other day as a stain. No matter how much I have tried to rub out God from my mind and heart, it ain’t coming out.

It would take a great deal of work to correctly define “God” as I understand him/her, but I would like to put down a few thoughts.

I believe “God” is not described very accurately in the bible, especially the Old Testament. I think it is more accurate to say that the authors of the biblical books were defining “God” as they saw him/her, much like I am doing here. In the world that we live in now, I don’t need to Wow you with amazing stories of “God”’s works and deeds. Its just not necessary. Because of our current world’s fascination with high energy entertainment, we already get a steady dose of this without my having to awe you with the amazing feats of “God”. So I won’t. “God” is “God”, how can I add to that without seeming like a complete idiot?

I believe I have a duty to love others unconditionally. This is not an easy task and may never be made manifest in my life during my lifetime but I will try.

I believe I am responsible to my wife and two boys to love them, nurture them, protect them, teach and learn from them, support them, acknowledge them, guide them based on my life experiences, and just be there for them in all their needs. They are mine and I am their’s.

I believe mankind has an innate desire to be with one another. I believe the statement, “No man is an island”. There is something about community, in all it’s forms, that is a very good thing. We are not meant to walk alone.

I believe somewhere in time, my questions will be answered. No matter what, I will get to the bottom of it all. No matter if the Christians are right or the atheist is, I will one day know and until then, I must journey on.


17 Responses to “My Journey Thus Far”


  1. November 7, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    Your post was very interesting. I am a former “youth minister” but now stay home with my children. My father is also a minister. There is so much yuck (if you will) in the church – SIN, and I too have had some very bad experiences. My thoughts always come back to people do not show me God. Christians, even though can be filled with the Spirit, are sinful. The mirror image is bent no matter what. The scriptures and prayer will only provide the truth to us. At that point we have to decide if it’s true or not (no one else can tell us that). If we believe the seat will support us we sit in it, if not we don’t. Finally I believe our feelings are so subject to change that we have to be careful to manage them. I was reminded of scripture that God wants us either cold or hot not luke warm. It appears God has given you great passion and that can propel you to do great things (in Him).
    Many Blessings on Your Journey,
    Debbie aka The Real World Martha

  2. November 7, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    Very interesting to read. It is sad that you felt so dissollusioned, for no-one wishes to feel like that. But having said that, it’s more important to find the truth, about God, the Bible, Christianity, and to follow your own path if necessary. You are certainly not alone in your feelings now, and experiences. I think there is a lot of truth in what you have written. By the way, have you ever considered calling yourself a Deist or even a Christian Deist (if you are looking for a ‘label’)? – you may find these terms fit what you believe much better than ‘Christian’.

  3. November 7, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    i appreciated your honesty in the article about your life. it is hard to be as open as you have been and i commend you for this.

    i do think that there are some major points that should be clarified, and these points are on this basis of believing God’s word as truth. the major points are the creed, you know the one that begins…”we believe in God the Father maker of heaven and earth, his only son Jesus Christ and in the virgin birth… etc”
    however you want to call yourself, if you don’t believe in these points then what you are really believing, is what you want to believe, and this is similar to the idea of relativism (its ok for you to believe this and and i will believe that notion). this is in fact not at all close to what the Bible teaches. the Bible states that even the demons belive in God and shudder. so just having a belief in God is not enough. i wanted to point this out so you know where i stand.

    i have a concept of where you are in searching and in change in life. i went to church for my entire life only to recently realize that church has been warped and become a program for entertaining. not all church is wrong, in fact a lot has the right ideas with the wrong approach. people who don’t fit in are very much alienated at church including most artists and creative types. i am both, but i fit in fine at church, but fine is not what i want. however, God called my wife and i out of the church, to “be” the “church” to artists where they are. don’t ask them to change their ways before the come to God. i sure didn’t before i came to God, did you? we still all struggle with the “s” word. so if you are a sexual deviant, a prostitute, a theif, a lier, or whatever other common sin theme you can think of, you don’t have to change before you come to God. He will change you only after you come to him. it will be hard, it will be messy, but it will be real. i want to follow Christ and make him known, not the “church” as we know it. i would call myself a Christ follower just because the word Christian has become so abused, by so many.

    i do believe that if you are really seeking for the truth, that God will reveal His truth to you. not one of relativism, but of a hard, difficult, i-don’t-know-if-i can-do-this-one-more-day-truth. if you think i am just blowing hot air, be assured; my son has cancer, my aunt just died from the same and i know the mess and the hardness of life. i sure would rather be having an adventure in life than living like the status quo. how about you?

    blessings and peace…
    http://darinwhite.wordpress.com

  4. November 8, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    Greetings. I just found your site on the wordpress header as I was going to check comments. One thing that I’ve noticed is that saints will get together and somehow end up conforming to one another instead of seeking to daily be more like Jesus. In other words, many will begin fellowshipping with a church, and over time, begin conforming to the traditions and mannerisms of the church instead of wholeheartedly seeking the Lord. The Berean test is abandoned and they conform to everything that is taught without searching the scriptures on their own. (Is that being presented right or are scriptures being pasted together to form another gospel? We cannot be too careful). I love Jeremiah 33:3 where we’re admonished to call upon the Lord in sincerely and he’ll reveal truth to us.

    Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. True liberty that comes with growing closer to the Lord and setting our affections on things above. As we draw closer, we’ll find ourselves increasingly not understood by those who prefer to obsess over the temporal things.

    I don’t know if any of this makes sense; but here it is. It was interesting to read your testimony. Have a most blessed day.

    timbob

  5. November 8, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Very interesting though. All the time I believed that I am an atheist but today I discover that I am not. I am agnostic thiest. A nice definition for me.

    On a much serious note: I always believed that there is something that Science cannot define. I also believed that since no one could define the force, tehy named it as God. Some fancy name that everyone could believe in. The greatest Marketing Gimmick till date. This belief might have changed but I still believe in something.

    The society is one big unit. The entire society has to work harmoniously to survive and prosper. All through BC, entire Europe (The Christian Society) was doomed. There was no rules and so no one was organised. Rapes, Murders and crime was the order of the day. To avoid all this, God was the name. and was the belief that God shall punish all sinners. This belief changed the commonman and crime by common man had reduced. A few people had taken the seats of God who used to punish all protestors and supposedly sinners. Then came Jesus Christ to take on all sins of mankind and render the light of truth. The preechings of Jesus Christ and his true believers organised the society. European Society (the christian Society) began to flourish. All the teachings of Jesus Christ focus on organising the societs and preech harmonious existence of people.
    Not only for the Black Age, but this truth prevails and remains till date. We need some guiding force to work in harmony. If now, we shall work invidually and hence cannot survive, leave alone prospering. God and belief in God still works as a very powerful force to orient most individuals.

    AND if the name of GOD can orient and control even 3 of 6 billion people in the world, it sure is a great force by its virtue.

    But guys, please do not forget that it was not the begining of religion. Other societies had this concept much before Christianity came to picture. For E.g. Indian Society. Founded 6 thousand years ago, i.e. 4000 years before Jesus Christ, God and faith in God prevailed ever-since.

    India has a unique culture and India has stood against all odds in the past, preserving it’s unique culture and tradition.
    Past is history now.
    We are moving ahead with new dreams and aspirations, there is no stopping now

    One thing that is important about India and makes it different than the rest of the world is the unique mix of people from different regions, speaking different languages, eating different kinds of food, wearing different kinds of clothes, singing on different kinds of tunes, following different religions and yet staying together like they are one big unit. India could not have prospered without this very diversified society.

    The diversity of religions is commendable. While a lot of societies have only one religion and yet keep on fighting amongst each other, the diversity of religions prevail and prosper in India. While Hiduism is the most followed religion, (approximately) 15% of Indians are muslims. Also there are a lot of Christians, Jains, Bhuddhist, Sikhs, Parsis and people who believe in different religions.

    Because of this very interesting mix, Indians celebrate all festivals with equal participation. While Diwali is the biggest festival, Eid is also a popular festival. (Especially for the Sevaiyan, a sweet served on Eid, is my favourite).

    In India, we have festivals for all reasons and for all seasons. There are festivals for Summers (Holi), for winters (Diwali, Eid, Navratri etc.) and for rainy seasons too.

    We celebrate on Birthdays, marriage anniversary, friendship day, valentine’s day, father’s day, mother’s day, childrens day, labour day, fools’ day and possibly everyday

    With 1.2 billion people, Indian society still flourishes because of the widespread religious beliefs all indians share.

    To know more about India, please visit my blog-> http://www.ideas24×7.wordpress.com

    Cheers

  6. November 8, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    Good luck to you. I’m an ex-Christian as well.

  7. November 11, 2007 at 8:35 pm

    “I believe somewhere in time, my questions will be answered. No matter what, I will get to the bottom of it all. No matter if the Christians are right or the atheist is, I will one day know and until then, I must journey on.

    I’ve been thinking over this post these past few days, and there’s something about it that just doesn’t sit well with me. I’m worried that, in setting yourself the goal you state in the last paragraph, you are both damming yourself to a lifetime of frustration and failure by setting yourself an impossible goal, and worse still are demonstrating that after all of the years of deconversion that have brought you to this point, you have not learnt one of it’s principal lessons. Here is a quote from Augustine in Confessions “I wished to be made as certain of things that I could not see, as I was that seven and three make ten.” He never found that certainty, and neither will you. I would like to suggest that you have set the next leg of your journey on the wrong course, and that there will never, ever be a time when “my questions will be answered. No matter what, I will get to the bottom of it” IMHO, the goal of the journey is the journey itself, not the end-point.
    Jon

  8. 8 preechaman7
    November 11, 2007 at 9:05 pm

    Jon,

    I understand what you are saying and appreciate your thoughts. I do believe that I will find out the answer to my questions however. I can’t go from day to day without a goal of finding answers. I haven’t gotten to the point where I see the journey as the goal. Eventually maybe, just not yet. I may be going in the direction of “a lifetime of frustration and failure” but that is my personality, go till I get to the bottom. I do appreciate your honesty.

    thanks

  9. November 12, 2007 at 2:59 am

    (not quite giving up yet)
    The other thing that strikes me about your post is that, although you have rejected (at least at a superficial level) the ideas we would normally associate with orthodox christianity, I suspect you are still using basic christian epistomological presuppositions. I am worried that this will lead you into a dead-end because, as far as I am aware, no-one has managed to achieve what you have set out to do in 2000 years. What I mean is that, like you, I grew up thinking that there were ideas, beliefs and behaviours that were “right” and “wrong”. You get marinated in this idea starting at the baptismal font, and it is reinforced in every song and sermon. I know I harp on about this, but I would really really recommend that you read Book 1 of the trilogy “Conversations with God” for no ther reason than because I think will help you see your own christian presuppositions because this book is just so far left field it will open up many new ways of seeing Man and God that do not appear anywhere in christian thought, either past or present. Sorry to go on at you, but it’s only because I care and I know how you feel! :-)
    Jon
    PS: I have to admit that I envy Lyndon who seems to be able to live within mystery and paradox and contracdiction in a far easier way. I think I’ll choose some of his genes next time around.

  10. 10 preechaman7
    November 12, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    Thanks again for your thoughts. In my mind, I am not trying to break new ground, but discover old ground. And you’re right, about growing up in the environment that I did, it’s hard to break away from “the stain” that I mentioned in the post. I have gotten easily away from the church, but have to this point struggled with leaving God completely. I will see if the library has the CWG books and give it a read. Maybe it will be just the thing to get my mind off of “skip”.
    Lyndon does have a unique perspective and has been able to attain a blend of “mystery and paradox”.

  11. November 12, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    I enjoyed your post. It’s been stirring around in my head for a few days. I’ve heard most of your story and been there for a lot of it, but I still learned a few things I did not know. I think we all can learn as much from where we’ve been as from where we are or where we’re going.

    I’m not sure about labels or categories. I just don’t know which box I’m supposed to check either. I’ll be blogging about this soon. I need to spend some time with wikipedia to figure out the terminology before I try to classify myself. Then again, I kind of like being an amorphous theological blob that doesn’t fit into any box neatly. With all honesty I see myself as more of an atheist/agnostic type lately, but there’s some kind of stigma attached to the verbage.

    I think a couple of things have made it easier for me to distance myself from the Christian concept of God. For starters I never had an ecstatic religious experience, nor did I ever particpate in emotional/experience driven churches. By default I’ve always been suspicious of feelings and a skeptic by nature. Secondly, my obsession with science, in particular astrophysics, has removed the need for theological/spiritual answers for many things in life. It’s akin to losing the awe and wonder of the magician once you know how he does his tricks, but in this case I’m only more in awe and wonder of the universe from learning the natural laws at work all around us.

    I think you find the answers in life that you want. You choose to settle for a set of answers or you don’t. I’ve found personally that finding answers only leads to more questions but better questions. I guess I differ in that I don’t ever expect to get to the bottom of it. I only expect to get closer to better questions.

    I have found answers in science that based upon all available data and theories to date are irrefutable, but the thing I love about the scientific approach to explanations is that everything is subject to scrutiny and capable of being challenged. Over time some things gather enough proofs to be tougher and tougher to refute, although not completely sacro-saint. Even gravity, for exmaple, continues to be one of the hardest things for science to explain accurately, and time only helps to further refine our understanding of it.

    Based on the answers I have found thus far, it makes it almost inconceivable to say that I may ever again believe the Christians are ‘right’ and the atheists are ‘wrong.’ Although I don’t believe Christianity is ‘right,’ it doesn’t mean that there aren’t values or ideals in the faith that are noble or beautiful, but it’s hard to overlook the history of the Bible/church or the end product of believers/non-believers.

    Anyway, that’s my two cents.

  12. 12 preechaman7
    November 12, 2007 at 2:14 pm

    I am always glad to hear your “two cents”. I have wondered over the last few days what you thought about this post. I hope that I didn’t misrepresent you in anyway.
    In writing this post, I was trying to get down in words where I have been over the last few years. It was very good for me to do this. It helped me “see” the bigger picture of the journey. I hope that this will be an annual thing, sort of like a “state of the union” address. I am glad that there are others that commented and visited this blog but truthfully, this was medicine for my soul. I felt good about the end product.
    Again, thanks.

  13. November 21, 2007 at 4:46 pm

    thanks for the GREAT post! Very useful…

  14. 14 real live preacher
    November 23, 2007 at 11:53 pm

    Hi there,

    What a marvelous and honest description of a journey. Don’t let people throw you off course by taking on this point or that point of what you have said. You have told us what it in your heart. Anything else would be a lie. So there is no story other than your real story.

    I have traveled a similar path. I’ve ended up within the fold of Christianity, but I am fairly marginalized. I doubt I will ever go back to a traditional church now that I have experienced a small community of friends who can speak honestly.

    I believe that no one with your heart and your deep love of truth will come to unbelief. Nor will God allow your gifts to be unused. You keep asking and searching and telling us your story. Thank you for it.

    I look forward to reading your work.

  15. 15 porter
    November 25, 2007 at 5:02 am

    i think you would really enjoy the new book Brown Like Coffee at brownlikecoffee.com

  16. November 28, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    Thanks for visiting my Saints blog!

    In regards to this post, well I think many of us reach a spiritual maturity that I wouldn’t call a crisis of faith, but more a crisis of defining oneself. And that’s the problem with many Christians . . . you must define yourself as a Christian or you must be labeled an atheist. It would be foolish of me to think I know what God (however you define or imagine God) wants or intended or is thinking. I’ve finally come to the point, however, where I am no longer anti-religion either. Whatever gets people through the day and guides them to be better people, then great. But we all need to find our own path, and mine may not be like any that has been previously defined. I applaud your self-examination and determination to find a spiritual path that is right for you.

  17. December 7, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    A friend of Real Live Preacher here. (And one of those folks who takes sick pleasure in pretending to marginalize him.)

    Keep plugging away. Keep looking for God. If you’re honest in that desire, you won’t be doomed to a life of frustration as someone said. It may not be hollywood and easystreet, but you’ll find contentment whatever the circumstance.

    The list of mentors was interesting to me. One I’ve found very helpful has been N. T. Wright. His book “The Challenge of Jesus” might be inspirational to you. Wright is one of those folks who isn’t afraid to ask the hard questions. You can hear his stuff online too at http://www.veritas.org, if you don’t feel like buying the book. (I’d recommend the book, though.)


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